The Underworld

[markus]

Seems to me that no matter how you live your life you end up in the underworld once you die, even Richard went there when he died. This leaves me thinking whats the point in living, you get a few short years of life, you then die and have to face an eternity of torment. And the only way to avoid this is by being real evil like Darken Rahl then you get to torture everyone else who you dont like.

Also the Keeper is somewhat short sighted. Everyone eventually ends in his domain so why rush things. Let everyone live as long as possible that way they will have more children and them childrem will have more children etc increasing overtime the number of natural deaths as population rises.

But still I love the books and love the show.

[JessieGirl]

I agree and was thinking the same thing. The only indication is whith the SOL who indicated they hope to someday be in the Creator's Light. The book portrayed the Keeper and Creator a bit differently!

[krichton]

Why would you say "but you still love the books" at the end of your post? It's not like the show's concept of the underworld was taken from the books. Only the show's idiot producer's would come up with such a stupid idea. What would be the purpose of continuing to fight the keeper if everyone all ends up in the pit in the end anyway?

[Bonam]

Well from the descriptions in the books we know very little about the underworld. Clearly, it is the domain of the Keeper, and clearly everyone goes there after death. The possibility of eternal suffering in the underworld for Richard and Kahlan seems to be a possibility, according to the thoughts of the Sisters of the Dark anyway, despite them being "good". So perhaps even good people end up in the underworld.

That would certainly not contradict Goodkind's primary themes: that you have one life, that it is precious, and that what matters is what you do with that life rather than trying to earn some unknowable reward in the next.

Also the Keeper is somewhat short sighted. Everyone eventually ends in his domain so why rush things. Let everyone live as long as possible that way they will have more children and them childrem will have more children etc increasing overtime the number of natural deaths as population rises.

As for why the Keeper wants to "rush" things... it seems clear that the Keeper's motivation is a hatred for all living things and the desire to destroy all life, rather than an agenda for sustainable growth of the underworld's population.

[krichton]

Well from the descriptions in the books we know very little about the underworld. Clearly, it is the domain of the Keeper, and clearly everyone goes there after death. The possibility of eternal suffering in the underworld for Richard and Kahlan seems to be a possibility, according to the thoughts of the Sisters of the Dark anyway, despite them being "good". So perhaps even good people end up in the underworld.

Not a possibility. It's guaranteed. Everyone ends with the keeper including children. Which defeats the whole purpose of the silly journey they're on and a complete breakdown of logic on the show.

[skrein]

Obviously this has been the biggest plot hole of the season. I think the writers are trying to use the excuse that because the veil is torn everything is not how it should be in the Underworld. Of course it's a stretch on the writers' part, but obviously not everyone is supposed to be tortured in the Underworld. Otherwise, Kieran and Vivian would not have skipped off happily to the Underworld in angelic rays of sunlight.

In the books, not everyone goes to the Underworld. "Good spirits protect us." If they're all in the Underworld how are they supposed to do that? Besides Denna didn't go to the Underworld.

[krichton]

Obviously this has been the biggest plot hole of the season. I think the writers are trying to use the excuse that because the veil is torn everything is not how it should be in the Underworld. Of course it's a stretch on the writers' part, but obviously not everyone is supposed to be tortured in the Underworld. Otherwise, Kieran and Vivian would not have skipped off happily to the Underworld in angelic rays of sunlight.

In the books, not everyone goes to the Underworld. "Good spirits protect us." If they're all in the Underworld how are they supposed to do that? Besides Denna didn't go to the Underworld.

Well I think everyone goes to the underworld in the books, but not necessarily to the keeper. As for the kieran ep, that was one episode. This entire season revolves around this concept that everyone goes to the keeper no matter who you are. Which is easier to dismiss?

[First Wizard]

I'm with skrein, I think that everyone is ending up in the Underworld like they are this season because of the torn veil.

[nehallennia]

I might be conflating the books with the series but my impression is that the underworld is layered: the deepest pits perhaps in the domain of the Keeper and 'hellish' in their nature. There might be other levels that are more 'heavenly' in nature, where the good spirits reside in tranquility--or perhaps the Creator's light.

Still, the weakest part of the story (in both books and series) is the theology: beyond it being dualistic, it is not really thought out. I think the writers are starting to realize that (just as Goodkind did) by introducing the Sisters of the Light/Dark and the Creator.

But yes: plothole indeed. It would make life seem nihilistic. Better to disappear after death alltogether than to face an eternity of torment for no good reason.

[markus]

What got me thinking was the 1st episode with banelings in. The priest that came back from underworld as a baneling to warn the good guys about banelings. He seemed like a good guy to me he didnt deserve the punishment he would be receiving.

[Mudpie]

Have you read the books yet, markus? I have not, but a friend of mine who has said that the underworld thing gets explained and that not everyone suffers eternally in the underworld. I think the sisters of the light give us an indication of that. Perhaps the spirits that were supposed to guide Richard to the light did not do so because they could foresee that he would be returned to his body.

The one thing that does bother me about the underworld story line is that it does not make sense for the keeper of the underworld to want to destry all life. In doing so he would greatly limit his own power. If he destroys all life, he will never have another new soul created through birth that he could possibly eventually rule. His would grossly limit his power in the long run. It doesn't make sense to me that he would want to do that.


(Sorry, I'm new here, I should have replied with a quote to markus as the first poster above. Forgive me. I'll get the hang of things here as quickly as I can.)

[First Wizard]

The one thing that does bother me about the underworld story line is that it does not make sense for the keeper of the underworld to want to destry all life. In doing so he would greatly limit his own power. If he destroys all life, he will never have another new soul created through birth that he could possibly eventually rule. His would grossly limit his power in the long run. It doesn't make sense to me that he would want to do that.

The Keeper isn't concerned with increasing his ranks or power; he simply utterly hates life and seeks to destroy it. Well, according to the books, that is. I assume they're going for the same thing in the show.

[Mudpie]

The Keeper isn't concerned with increasing his ranks or power; he simply utterly hates life and seeks to destroy it. Well, according to the books, that is. I assume they're going for the same thing in the show.

Thanks for that Info. I just got a hold of the first, fourth and fifth books at my local used bookstore. I'm looking for the rest of them on the cheap. I haven't started reading them yet, but am looking forward to it. Darken Rahl seems to like power too much for him to follow the Keeper's quest to destroy all life. Surely he should see the way these actions would eventually limit his power as well--unless he has plans to take the Keeper's place. Again, don't let my speculations upset you. I'm only going by what I see in the TV show. I haven't read the books yet, but will soon. Hopefully then, my discussions will be more informed.

[First Wizard]

Feel free to speculate all you want. I can see where you're coming from.

Spoiler: Tiny book spoiler about the Keeper and why people serve him

The Keeper promises immortality among other rewards for serving him.

[Mizari]

I might be conflating the books with the series but my impression is that the underworld is layered: the deepest pits perhaps in the domain of the Keeper and 'hellish' in their nature. There might be other levels that are more 'heavenly' in nature, where the good spirits reside in tranquility--or perhaps the Creator's light.

Still, the weakest part of the story (in both books and series) is the theology: beyond it being dualistic, it is not really thought out. I think the writers are starting to realize that (just as Goodkind did) by introducing the Sisters of the Light/Dark and the Creator.

But yes: plothole indeed. It would make life seem nihilistic. Better to disappear after death alltogether than to face an eternity of torment for no good reason.

I agree. Perhaps 'purgatory' would be a more apt term. I would like to see an episode where other, less hellish levels were explored. They have been hinted at after all.

[nehallennia]

Hmmm... that's actually a good point. I don't think the books show those inconsistencies so it might just be something that the writers hadn't completely thought through. I think that's understandable since Goodkind is not particularly interested in exploring metaphysics indepth in his world-building so that might have just carried through into the series.

[markus]

I dont remember books that well its been along time since I read many of them. But the Temple of the winds is in the underworld and Richard has to travel there so I guess there must be many many parts to the under world some real bad others not so bad just different from the real world.

[Dee]

I know I'm still confused on the purpose and use of the Underworld overall. Kieran and Viv are in the Underworld but thank goodness it isn't with DK. So I have to agree...because of the tear things have changed dramatically for the Underworld(s).

[maleconfessor]

i think the whole Underworld thing IS the biggest plot hole. No offense to the writers or Goodkind, but using religious symbolism, and metaphors to layer the subject can be problematic, like what's happening this series. The Keeper, essentially is a metaphor for the Devil, who wants all mankind to go to Hell, but it is opposite, the Keeper wants all of the world of the living, which doesn't make sense, coz if he has all the world of the living, everyone will be dead. Even in Greek mythology, Hades was the "keeper' of the underworld, but there still was the Elysian Fields, and Tartarus.

The idea of baneling is cool, but too much religious philosophy and LotS theology that doesn't really make sense with itself.

[maleconfessor]

to be honest, i don't know why a lot of fantasy writers feel compelled to have some sort of religion in their universe, aka Sword of Truth, Lord of the Rings (gandalf is supposed to be some angel), and even Harry Potter. I just recently finished my young adult fantasy novel, and it is completely devoid of religious symbolism or anything of the sort.